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	<title>Comments on: Reply to a Reply</title>
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	<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/</link>
	<description>Life, the universe and all the rest</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mind Booster Noori</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-53115</link>
		<dc:creator>Mind Booster Noori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-53115</guid>
		<description>I don't really know much about PlayStation Home: the fact that it only runs on Playstations turns me down... A Virtual World should aim for ubiquity to be a global success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t really know much about PlayStation Home: the fact that it only runs on Playstations turns me down&#8230; A Virtual World should aim for ubiquity to be a global success.</p>
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		<title>By: Gustavo Felisberto</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52900</link>
		<dc:creator>Gustavo Felisberto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 18:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52900</guid>
		<description>Marcos: Thank you for bringing your expertize in virtual worlds and pointing to alternatives to SL.
Also I did not know that the SL server had also been released under a OSS License, that means that  SL like instances will continue to exist for a long time.

I must say that I find this discussion interesting. And if we are talking of SL alternatives has any one use Sony Home ? It is a closed beta right now but what I've seen seems interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcos: Thank you for bringing your expertize in virtual worlds and pointing to alternatives to SL.<br />
Also I did not know that the SL server had also been released under a OSS License, that means that  SL like instances will continue to exist for a long time.</p>
<p>I must say that I find this discussion interesting. And if we are talking of SL alternatives has any one use Sony Home ? It is a closed beta right now but what I&#8217;ve seen seems interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: paula</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52861</link>
		<dc:creator>paula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52861</guid>
		<description>I will take a look on that. I know there are several tools better then SL for collaboration, but with poor graphics. And your link seems to have better tools, some of them that I know teachers would love to have.
But the main reason I said SL is the only, at this moment is because people invested money, but knowledge in learning the app (time), so I think that only a really, really big thing will make teachers and students change from SL to another one.
They are already in SL and the others too.
The main advantage of SL is that it was the first to be discovered by  a great number of teachers and it will be used by them until they find it useful.

I was reading the educators list, just now, and someone pointed that:
Last week at ASTD's TechKnowledge 2008 conference, Joe Miller, VP of  Platform and Technology Development at Linden Labs, said that there are over 1300 regions involved in education/training. 

Of course we do not know if they are all active, but nevertheless is a lot of educational regions :-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will take a look on that. I know there are several tools better then SL for collaboration, but with poor graphics. And your link seems to have better tools, some of them that I know teachers would love to have.<br />
But the main reason I said SL is the only, at this moment is because people invested money, but knowledge in learning the app (time), so I think that only a really, really big thing will make teachers and students change from SL to another one.<br />
They are already in SL and the others too.<br />
The main advantage of SL is that it was the first to be discovered by  a great number of teachers and it will be used by them until they find it useful.</p>
<p>I was reading the educators list, just now, and someone pointed that:<br />
Last week at ASTD&#8217;s TechKnowledge 2008 conference, Joe Miller, VP of  Platform and Technology Development at Linden Labs, said that there are over 1300 regions involved in education/training. </p>
<p>Of course we do not know if they are all active, but nevertheless is a lot of educational regions <img src='http://blog.felisberto.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Mind Booster Noori</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52859</link>
		<dc:creator>Mind Booster Noori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52859</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Paula: You fail to point a single source of real revenue, the one that is
capable of generating more revenue. You are counting on universities to keep
pouring cash into the system? That is the worst Business Model ever.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Paula didn't fail to point out a single source of real revenue, since she
didn't even tried to do so. Why should she? In your first post you didn't talk
about Linden Lab's business model, so in her rebutal she also didn't. You
talked about if Second Life would survive or not, and, for that, you talked
about users, second life client problems and economical problems. So, Paula
talked about one example of Second Life users that she thinks will keep being
SL users for a long time: universities. It's not about a business model, is
about who's making it active.

If you want to talk about linden lab business model, we have to take three things
straight first:

Universities aren't "pouring cash into the system": they're giving LL money
by buying land, as many others;
Second Life as a concept doesn't need a business model: both client and
server is open sourced by now, so the code has a life of its own. When talking
about Second Life we are talking about Linden Lab's instance of Second
Life;
When talking about Linden Lab's businness model, for the sake of sanity,
let's pretend that Linden Lab's only business is their Second Life instance,
and developing products around the Second Life ecosystem.


When Linden Lab decided to open source their servers, discussion about Linden
Lab's business model: after all it couldn't be just generating revenue by
selling land in the virtual world, since nowadays anybody can do that. So,
what's their business?

selling virtual land (with competition);
consult to other companies doing business in Second Life (with
competition);
virtual bank (with competition);
develop proprietary extensions to SL (I hope not, but it's viable);
become a not-for-profit (which suits well, and if you see other examples of
not-for-profit technology companies, that can be a happy choice)...

And this is just a little of the HUGE amount of things they could do. There's
a lot of money in VW's nowadays, and growing, and only a fool would
ignore that factor. Plus, in all the activities with competition, they will
surely be the most trusted and considered the better (even if more expensive).

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I can barely agree with the first one, but the others? Architecture models?
Medicine students practicing on a model? SL is a poor excuse for a simulated 3D
world. The 3rd person perspective kills any lessons one might learn for
architecture purposes. Just try to design a real house in SL and you end up
walking over every peace of furniture there. And practicing a delicate surgery
in a virtual model? Maybe practicing the theoretical steps would be possible
but more than that?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You seem to be skeptical with eLearning in general. That can be a nice
discussion to have, but it would be out of focus of discussing Second Life. For
the latter, it suffices to say that, like it or not, eLearning is growing
steadilly, and the efforts of using virtual worlds for eLearning have a long
history, and is also growing. I don't believe (do you?) that the effort will
stop soon...

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Why would a company want to be on SL? That is the real issue. Find a BM that is
capable of generating real revenue and maybe we can find a common ground. Until
them, for me, it is just a souped up academic experiment.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Companies can have a lot of reasons for wanting to be in Second Life. There's a
lot of people there, and each avatar can be a potential client, publicity
target, partner... Plus, in Second Life you need services, so there's a huge
ecosystem of companies doing "virtual work" (generating content and selling it,
for instance). Companies can loose money or make money on Virtual Worlds,
including Second Life. This isn't speculation of belief: there are lot's of
examples of both. Then, Second Life can also be used as a mean to reach a goal,
even if you need to invest (and that's the use companies are making when
creating virtual environments for training purposes, simulate oppinion-making
practices, socio-economic evaluations on the impact of several actions...).
It's all a matter of having an idea of something you want to do and that can be
done thanks to Second Life. It's a difficult exercice for a Virtual Worlds
skeptical, but a fruitous one for some companies making real dollars out of it.
At the end, for lots of companies it can be just an "academic experiment", but
good academic experiments have purposes, and if Second Life can enhance the
expirence and reaching those purposes better (in a quicker way, in a less
expensive way, or similar factors), then Second Life already has a possible
purpose.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
SL has positive and negative aspects for education, but in general it is a good
tool and, for the reasons I stated before, the only one. Can you point me
another tool that teachers could use to have the same revenue SL gives?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

SL isn't the only tool for those things, but that's a whole other discussion...
Take a look at &lt;a href="http://www.ugotrade.com/2008/02/16/evolution-of-opensim-realxtend-joins-opensim/" rel="nofollow"&gt;what's
being made on OpenSim&lt;/a&gt;, for instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Paula: You fail to point a single source of real revenue, the one that is<br />
capable of generating more revenue. You are counting on universities to keep<br />
pouring cash into the system? That is the worst Business Model ever.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Paula didn&#8217;t fail to point out a single source of real revenue, since she<br />
didn&#8217;t even tried to do so. Why should she? In your first post you didn&#8217;t talk<br />
about Linden Lab&#8217;s business model, so in her rebutal she also didn&#8217;t. You<br />
talked about if Second Life would survive or not, and, for that, you talked<br />
about users, second life client problems and economical problems. So, Paula<br />
talked about one example of Second Life users that she thinks will keep being<br />
SL users for a long time: universities. It&#8217;s not about a business model, is<br />
about who&#8217;s making it active.</p>
<p>If you want to talk about linden lab business model, we have to take three things<br />
straight first:</p>
<p>Universities aren&#8217;t &#8220;pouring cash into the system&#8221;: they&#8217;re giving LL money<br />
by buying land, as many others;<br />
Second Life as a concept doesn&#8217;t need a business model: both client and<br />
server is open sourced by now, so the code has a life of its own. When talking<br />
about Second Life we are talking about Linden Lab&#8217;s instance of Second<br />
Life;<br />
When talking about Linden Lab&#8217;s businness model, for the sake of sanity,<br />
let&#8217;s pretend that Linden Lab&#8217;s only business is their Second Life instance,<br />
and developing products around the Second Life ecosystem.</p>
<p>When Linden Lab decided to open source their servers, discussion about Linden<br />
Lab&#8217;s business model: after all it couldn&#8217;t be just generating revenue by<br />
selling land in the virtual world, since nowadays anybody can do that. So,<br />
what&#8217;s their business?</p>
<p>selling virtual land (with competition);<br />
consult to other companies doing business in Second Life (with<br />
competition);<br />
virtual bank (with competition);<br />
develop proprietary extensions to SL (I hope not, but it&#8217;s viable);<br />
become a not-for-profit (which suits well, and if you see other examples of<br />
not-for-profit technology companies, that can be a happy choice)&#8230;</p>
<p>And this is just a little of the HUGE amount of things they could do. There&#8217;s<br />
a lot of money in VW&#8217;s nowadays, and growing, and only a fool would<br />
ignore that factor. Plus, in all the activities with competition, they will<br />
surely be the most trusted and considered the better (even if more expensive).</p>
<blockquote><p>
I can barely agree with the first one, but the others? Architecture models?<br />
Medicine students practicing on a model? SL is a poor excuse for a simulated 3D<br />
world. The 3rd person perspective kills any lessons one might learn for<br />
architecture purposes. Just try to design a real house in SL and you end up<br />
walking over every peace of furniture there. And practicing a delicate surgery<br />
in a virtual model? Maybe practicing the theoretical steps would be possible<br />
but more than that?
</p></blockquote>
<p>You seem to be skeptical with eLearning in general. That can be a nice<br />
discussion to have, but it would be out of focus of discussing Second Life. For<br />
the latter, it suffices to say that, like it or not, eLearning is growing<br />
steadilly, and the efforts of using virtual worlds for eLearning have a long<br />
history, and is also growing. I don&#8217;t believe (do you?) that the effort will<br />
stop soon&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>
Why would a company want to be on SL? That is the real issue. Find a BM that is<br />
capable of generating real revenue and maybe we can find a common ground. Until<br />
them, for me, it is just a souped up academic experiment.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Companies can have a lot of reasons for wanting to be in Second Life. There&#8217;s a<br />
lot of people there, and each avatar can be a potential client, publicity<br />
target, partner&#8230; Plus, in Second Life you need services, so there&#8217;s a huge<br />
ecosystem of companies doing &#8220;virtual work&#8221; (generating content and selling it,<br />
for instance). Companies can loose money or make money on Virtual Worlds,<br />
including Second Life. This isn&#8217;t speculation of belief: there are lot&#8217;s of<br />
examples of both. Then, Second Life can also be used as a mean to reach a goal,<br />
even if you need to invest (and that&#8217;s the use companies are making when<br />
creating virtual environments for training purposes, simulate oppinion-making<br />
practices, socio-economic evaluations on the impact of several actions&#8230;).<br />
It&#8217;s all a matter of having an idea of something you want to do and that can be<br />
done thanks to Second Life. It&#8217;s a difficult exercice for a Virtual Worlds<br />
skeptical, but a fruitous one for some companies making real dollars out of it.<br />
At the end, for lots of companies it can be just an &#8220;academic experiment&#8221;, but<br />
good academic experiments have purposes, and if Second Life can enhance the<br />
expirence and reaching those purposes better (in a quicker way, in a less<br />
expensive way, or similar factors), then Second Life already has a possible<br />
purpose.</p>
<blockquote><p>
SL has positive and negative aspects for education, but in general it is a good<br />
tool and, for the reasons I stated before, the only one. Can you point me<br />
another tool that teachers could use to have the same revenue SL gives?
</p></blockquote>
<p>SL isn&#8217;t the only tool for those things, but that&#8217;s a whole other discussion&#8230;<br />
Take a look at <a href="http://www.ugotrade.com/2008/02/16/evolution-of-opensim-realxtend-joins-opensim/" rel="nofollow">what&#8217;s<br />
being made on OpenSim</a>, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: paula</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52851</link>
		<dc:creator>paula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52851</guid>
		<description>reply to ui: o sr é mais uma pessoa a mandar bitaites sem saber do que está a falar.
Os Mundos virtuais são usados em educação há muitos anos.
É certo que há um certo hype. E isso não é necessariamente mau.
Muitos projectos em Universidades nunca teriam visto a luz do dia se a quem tem o poder de decisão sobre o dinheiro na Universidade não fosse garantida a publicidade da instituição.
Ou o sr acha que pode dizer (e provar) ao presidente de uma instituição que tem um projecto fenomenal, mas que ninguém vai saber, não vai ter publicidade ou impacto na sociedade, enquanto projecto da universidade, e ele lhe vai dar dinheiro para o sr levar o seu projecto adiante?
O sr está muito longe da realidade e não lhe falo só do caso português. 
Relativamente ao SL, não sou eu que digo, são milhares de professores que dão aulas e cursos lá  há mais de um ano. São pessoas que deram e tiveram aulas com recurso ao SL, pessoas que experienciaram na primeira pessoa e viram vantagens nisso.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>reply to ui: o sr é mais uma pessoa a mandar bitaites sem saber do que está a falar.<br />
Os Mundos virtuais são usados em educação há muitos anos.<br />
É certo que há um certo hype. E isso não é necessariamente mau.<br />
Muitos projectos em Universidades nunca teriam visto a luz do dia se a quem tem o poder de decisão sobre o dinheiro na Universidade não fosse garantida a publicidade da instituição.<br />
Ou o sr acha que pode dizer (e provar) ao presidente de uma instituição que tem um projecto fenomenal, mas que ninguém vai saber, não vai ter publicidade ou impacto na sociedade, enquanto projecto da universidade, e ele lhe vai dar dinheiro para o sr levar o seu projecto adiante?<br />
O sr está muito longe da realidade e não lhe falo só do caso português.<br />
Relativamente ao SL, não sou eu que digo, são milhares de professores que dão aulas e cursos lá  há mais de um ano. São pessoas que deram e tiveram aulas com recurso ao SL, pessoas que experienciaram na primeira pessoa e viram vantagens nisso.</p>
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		<title>By: paula</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52850</link>
		<dc:creator>paula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52850</guid>
		<description>I wrote a post in my blog because I needed to say many things. I will try to answer this new one in  a few words to state my point.
You are still seeing SL as a platform for content production and distribution, and while you see it this way, you will not be able to see it's potential. (&lt;a href="http://paulasimoes.org/blog/?p=118" rel="nofollow"&gt;go read my post&lt;/a&gt; :-) )
I talk about education because it is the field I know best.
In real life, you can not take your students to a court room to setup a trial for them to practice; you cannot take your students to practice how would they need to talk, ask questions to real patients and even if you can, you will not be able to save the situation and discuss it afterwards with your students to them to see what was right and what was wrong.
You can say you can do it in a classroom, but if you had any experience with students you would know that that it is not very attractive to them and it is not easily to them to get into the role they have to play.
In real life you can not setup an educational controlled environment to your students easily.
Everything I said it was based on real courses that are running in SL. Gosh, you even have a teacher saying that SL solved a problem of face-to-face classes!
If you knew a little about how teachers are using SL you wouldn't say this, or do you think thousands of universities are wrong? Or maybe you think they are in SL, but they hate it? Maybe you think they use it, but they don't find it useful?
SL has positive and negative aspects for education, but in general it is a good tool and, for the reasons I stated before, the only one. Can you point me another tool that teachers could use to have the same revenue SL gives?
The revenue is best learning and teaching (and publicity if you want). 
In respect to a company, you remind me the author of The Long Tail that was sad because only 30 avatars showed up on his book event. He forgot the thousands of views of the event on youtube or the posts made on blogs.
The business models are changing, the educational models are changing. We do not know yet how they will be, but as in any other new medium, we never know until we get there.
You are rejecting a technology without knowing it. I can not believe you read about the educational experiences and practices in SL. I gave you several real examples and even then you though it were nothing. Go tell that to that professors and students, if you dare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote a post in my blog because I needed to say many things. I will try to answer this new one in  a few words to state my point.<br />
You are still seeing SL as a platform for content production and distribution, and while you see it this way, you will not be able to see it&#8217;s potential. (<a href="http://paulasimoes.org/blog/?p=118" rel="nofollow">go read my post</a> <img src='http://blog.felisberto.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> )<br />
I talk about education because it is the field I know best.<br />
In real life, you can not take your students to a court room to setup a trial for them to practice; you cannot take your students to practice how would they need to talk, ask questions to real patients and even if you can, you will not be able to save the situation and discuss it afterwards with your students to them to see what was right and what was wrong.<br />
You can say you can do it in a classroom, but if you had any experience with students you would know that that it is not very attractive to them and it is not easily to them to get into the role they have to play.<br />
In real life you can not setup an educational controlled environment to your students easily.<br />
Everything I said it was based on real courses that are running in SL. Gosh, you even have a teacher saying that SL solved a problem of face-to-face classes!<br />
If you knew a little about how teachers are using SL you wouldn&#8217;t say this, or do you think thousands of universities are wrong? Or maybe you think they are in SL, but they hate it? Maybe you think they use it, but they don&#8217;t find it useful?<br />
SL has positive and negative aspects for education, but in general it is a good tool and, for the reasons I stated before, the only one. Can you point me another tool that teachers could use to have the same revenue SL gives?<br />
The revenue is best learning and teaching (and publicity if you want).<br />
In respect to a company, you remind me the author of The Long Tail that was sad because only 30 avatars showed up on his book event. He forgot the thousands of views of the event on youtube or the posts made on blogs.<br />
The business models are changing, the educational models are changing. We do not know yet how they will be, but as in any other new medium, we never know until we get there.<br />
You are rejecting a technology without knowing it. I can not believe you read about the educational experiences and practices in SL. I gave you several real examples and even then you though it were nothing. Go tell that to that professors and students, if you dare.</p>
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		<title>By: ui</title>
		<link>http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52846</link>
		<dc:creator>ui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.felisberto.net/2008/03/05/reply-to-a-reply/#comment-52846</guid>
		<description>Tens de perceber que ela ganha a vida, a meter aulas de e-learning no Second Life. É por isso que ela defende esse modelo. Acaba o hype... acaba o emprego. That simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tens de perceber que ela ganha a vida, a meter aulas de e-learning no Second Life. É por isso que ela defende esse modelo. Acaba o hype&#8230; acaba o emprego. That simple.</p>
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